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Posted by: Howard Barkell {Email left}
Location: Lydford Devon
Date: Friday 2nd September 2016 at 11:04 AM
Dear Alan,
On Sourton War Memorial is the name Cecil Norman 6th Devons. From the CWGC website I wonder if the same man might be TR/8/8882 Pte. C. Norman 53rd Bn Devonshire Regiment who died on 10th January 1918 and is buried in Durrington Cemetery on Salisbury Plain. Could you kindly give me your opinion and any other information you might be able to find about this man.
Kind regards,
Howard
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 2nd September 2016 at 8:57 PM

Dear Howard,
Cecil Norman is something of an enigma, as I cannot find details of his birth or his parents. There were two men named Cecil Norman who had served in the Devonshire Regiment. One was Sidney Cecil Norman who survived the war and was discharged in 1919 having served in the 1st and 9th Battalions. The other was a Cecil Norman who did not appear in the campaign medal rolls but who was entered in the Silver War Badge Rolls as private 8/8882, who had been enlisted on 17th February 1917; had not served overseas and was discharged through sickness on 24th December 1917.
Cecil Norman was enlisted at Oakhampton as TR/8/8882 which indicated he was in a Training Reserve Battalion administered by Army district record office No.8 which was Exeter. The number was allotted by the 52nd (correct) Graduated Battalion Devonshire Regiment, when Cecil was called up on 17th February 1917. He would have been born about February 1899. Cecil was 5ft 71/2ins with fair hair and blue eyes. He was medically passed as fit for service overseas once he completed training. He was a farm labourer and gave his address in February 1917 as Forda Farm, Sourton, near Bridestowe. His next-of-kin was his brother, Charles, at the same address, care of Mrs Reynolds (Albert and Ada Maria Reynolds lived at Forda Farm in 1911).
On February 18th 1917 Cecil was posted to the 35th Training Reserve Battalion which became known as the 53rd Young Soldier Battalion Devonshire Regiment when the 35th was re-designated on 27th October 1917. The 53rd was based at Sutton Mandeville, nine miles west of Salisbury, Wiltshire. These battalions were all of the type created to train the 18-year -old conscripts that were being brought into the Army.
In October 1917, Cecil Norman was treated for mild influenza at the military hospital of Fovant Camp on Salisbury Plain. On 13th November 1913 at Fargo Camp military hospital, Cecil was diagnosed with Pulmonary Tuberculosis. On 24th December 1917 he was discharged from the Army as no longer physically fit for war service. On his discharge he stated he intended living at Oatmeal Hill Farm, Sourton. This was probably Oatnell Farm, Sourton. However, he was recommended for hospital treatment to be followed by a medical review in six months’ time. He died on January 10th 1918. His death was registered in Amesbury District, (which included Durrington, Wiltshire) in January 1918 (Vol 5a; Page 222). He was buried at Durrington Cemetery, half way between Bulford and Larkhill camps. It was not a CWGC cemetery but was a civil cemetery that because of its location close to Larkhill Camp contained a large section of war graves that are maintained by the CWGC.
It seems Cecil died, perhaps in hospital on Salisbury Plain, after being discharged on medical grounds.
One entry in the registers of soldiers’ effects recorded “presumed died on 24th December 1917” and there was no record shown of a next-of-kin. The register stated no outstanding payments or allowances were forwarded. Another entry stated he was “presumed dead” on 10th January 1918. It seems the paymaster had lost track of Cecil by 1919 when the entries were made.
There is no direct connection between Cecil Norman TR/8/8882 and the 6th Battalion Devonshire Regiment. The 3rd/6th Battalion Devonshire Regiment which was formed at Exeter in March 1915 became the 6th Reserve Battalion Devonshire Regiment in April 1916 and trained at Sutton Veny, near Warminster, in 1917 and moved to Larkhill Camp in early 1918. It is possible Cecil had some contact with the 6th Reserve Battalion in his last fortnight, or the plaque could be inaccurate. There was only one C. Norman in the Devonshire Regiment listed on the CWGC Debt of Honour.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Howard Barkell
Date: Saturday 3rd September 2016 at 8:38 AM

Dear Alan,
Thank you once again for such detailed information and for clear explanations and possible reasons. It does seem strange that he might have died in a military hospital after being discharged. He may have had nowhere else to go, possibly an orphan as his brother was his next of kin. Incidentally I visited his grave recently when travelling along the 303. Despite a convoy of army lorries passing the cemetery is in a beautiful spot.
As for the 6th Devons I have come across a similar wrong unit on the same memorial, so that may have been a red herring.
Best wishes,
Howard
Posted by: Colin Kirkham {Email left}
Location: Uk
Date: Thursday 1st September 2016 at 7:33 PM
For many years I have been researching running clubs in Coventry, mostly my own club, Coventry Godiva Harriers. I have interviewed the niece of Austin Thomas Price (born 1898 [7?]) who eventually had to joined (1917) up in WW1 after several appeals for exemption . He is supposed to have been conscripted to the Oxford Regiment (cannot find conformation) but transferred to the Machine Gun Corps and served in India. I can find little information about this but is true. When was he demobbed, when was he actually conscripted.
He was an international cross country runner for England, his club being the Humber Harriers, loosely attached to the Humber car factory on who's grounds the club trained.
Any help would be very much appreciated.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 2nd September 2016 at 12:23 AM

Dear Colin,
It is not possible to positively identify a soldier by his name only. There was one medal rolls entry for an Austin Thomas Price who served in the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry and the Machine Gun Corps. There is no individual service record for him so it is not possible to state his service in detail or to further identify him with biographical details. The medal rolls recorded he first enlisted as a rifleman with the number 204545 in the Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry. That regimental number was allotted to the 4th Battalion Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry in January 1917, so he would not have gone abroad until after January 1917, although he may have undertaken basic training before then. As the 4th Battalion Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry had three battalions, designated 1st/4th and 2nd/4th and 3rd/4th it is not possible to state in which battalion he first enlisted. It is not possible to state when he transferred to the Machine Gun Corps as a private soldier with the number 164192.
An Austin Thomas Price appears to have been born on 14th January 1897 at Hill, Leamington Hastings, near Rugby. He was perhaps the eldest son of a farmer, Austin Walter Price and his wife Fanny Charlotte, of Lower Grange Farm, Cubbington, Leamington Spa. When the Military Service Act of March 1916 introduced compulsory conscription it was common for farmer’s sons to apply for exemption because of the need for food production and initially exemption was granted.
It seems Austin Price was called-up in late 1916 or 1917. He served overseas and was transferred to the Reserve (demobilized) on 23rd February 1920, a date recorded on the medal rolls. This was quite a late date as most men were demobilized in early 1919, so the date indicates he was probably serving abroad and had been conscripted later in the war than many other men, who therefore qualified for an earlier discharge from the Army in 1919.
India was not a theatre of war; consequently many soldiers there qualified only for the British War Medal. Austin T. Price 164192 Machine Gun Corps qualified only for the British War Medal, suggesting he had served in India and not in a theatre of war.
There is further information about the Machine Gun Corps in India at:
http://wiki.fibis.org/index.php/Machine_Gun_Corps
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Colin Kirkham
Date: Friday 2nd September 2016 at 10:16 AM

Alan,
You are amazing ...thank you very much, that is excellent. From my investigations and talking to his family, your details add a great understanding of his background. He started running when in uniform and I have a programme of him competing in a marathon (in this case some 12 miles) for the Machine Gun Corps while in India. He returned to the farm on demob and continued his athletics by joining the Humber Harriers in Coventry rather than the more prestigious Birchfield Harriers (Birmingham) or my own club, Coventry Godiva Harriers, despite being offered 'incentives'! He raced three times for England in the Cross Country Internationals. I have found that he did appear before the Tribunal three times, the last time they gave him time to complete the harvest which nicely fits the 'late 1916 or 1917' call up you mention. Serving in India would, as you say, account for his later demob time.
You are a star!
Colin

Posted by: Liam Cornes {Email left}
Location: Hitchin
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 7:20 PM
Hi,

my Grandfather Pte Bert Blows 3592 was in the retreat from Mons, I would like to know roughly when he went into 19th Field Ambulance, the actual date if possible and the locations 19FA went to, I know he transferred on 26 March 1916 to 10 Stationary Hospital based at St. Omer for the rest of the war.

Best regards

Liam
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 10:33 PM

Dear Liam,
It is not possible to state where your grandfather served with 19 Field Ambulance RAMC unless you know in which of the three Sections of 19 Field Ambulance he served. The reason is that B and C Sections were detached as soon as 19 Field Ambulance arrived in France and for the rest of the war, only A Section formed part of the unit which became known as 19th Brigade Field Ambulance. On 5th September A Section was joined by B and C Sections of 20 Field Ambulance to make up their strength and to become 19th Brigade Field Ambulance with the 19th Infantry Brigade. As each Section of 19 Field Ambulance served in different places and as each Section was in two locations each day, as they marched from one to the other, the list of places where Bert Blows could have been is almost endless. A section alone was in 20 different locations during their first fortnight in France and Flanders. The Great Retreat (also called the Retreat from Mons) lasted from 24th August 1914 to 28th September 1914.
Bert Blows was a RAMC reservist. 19 Field Ambulance was mobilized at 7.30 p.m. on August 4th and moved to West Croydon where it was brought up to strength with drafts of regulars and reservists on 6th and 9th August 1914. They trained on Mitcham Common. On 18th August 1914 they travelled by train to Southampton for the Channel crossing to Rouen aboard SS “Karnac”. They crossed the Channel and after a long waited moored in the Seine they disembarked on 21st August 1914. They marched from Rouen to Mont St Augan where B and C sections were detached and sent “to an unknown destination”. A Section moved on its own to Valenciennes. [The original B and C Sections were actually attached to Headquarters First Army and were split up. Many men of these sections were captured at Landrecies on 28th August 1914. On 13th November 1914, what had been the original B Section of 19 Field Ambulance joined 20th Field Ambulance.]
In December 1914, 19 Field Ambulance settled for the month at Armentieres. The war diary listing the places the original Sections had been based in the period up to November 30th 1914 is 135 pages long and so it cannot be summarised here. The two war diaries of 19 Field Ambulance can be downloaded from The National Archives for £3.45 each. See:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=%2219+field+ambulance%22
However, you would need to know in which section Bert Blows had served to identify where he actually served. His medal rolls index-card recorded he arrived in France with 19 F.A. on 21st August 1914, so he would have been among those reservists called-up to West Croydon in the first week of the war, arriving on 6th and 9th August 1914.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Liam Cornes
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 11:10 PM

Hi Alan, unfortunately I do not know which section he was in, is there a way to find out? We do not have his service papers, only a few scraps of paper noting his discharge from the Army after the war, and his references from when he signed up to army life in 1903.

Best regards

Liam
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 11:16 PM

Dear Liam,
No service record appears to have survived so it is not possible to state in which Section he served. The war diaries will give a general impression of what the Sections were engaged in during 1914.
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Brian Adams {Email left}
Location: Coleraine
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 1:19 PM
Is it possible to obtain a copy of my old national registration identity card...
I was born on the 9th June 1950 and at that time lived at 36 Shuttle Hill Coleraine... then in 1953 sometime, we moved to 36 Willow Drive, Coleraine...
If it is not possible... not to worry... I was just curious, after seeing a photo of one, on here, and I suddendly remembered my mum saying.... "That one in the drawer is yours , don't loose it.."...

Thank you for at least reading... you have a fantastic site here ... keep up the very important work...

Kindest regards...
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 10:13 PM

Dear Brian,
The National Registration identity cards are long gone. They were conceived in December 1938 when it was announced that in the event of war a National Register would be taken of the personal details of all 41 million civilians in Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The Register would be used to issue identity cards and organise ration cards. The information gathered was transferred to two working registers: one to allocate ration books; the other for issuing identity cards and for military service call-up.
The National Registration Bill was introduced to Parliament as an emergency measure at the start of the Second World War in 1939 and Royal assent was granted on 5th September 1939. A National Registration Day was held on 29th September 1939 on the lines of a national census.
On 21st February 1952, it no longer became necessary to carry an identity card. The National Registration Act of 1939 was repealed on 22nd May 1952. At the same time, the local council National Registration Offices started to be run down towards closure as the identity cards were no longer issued although ration books were for another two years.
Information from the 1939 Register in England and Wales has been made available on the commercial Findmypast website. But in Scotland and Northern Ireland it is necessary to make a Freedom of Information request. For Northern Ireland see:
https://www.nidirect.gov.uk/forms/proni-enquiry
Enquiries are free. They would not be able to identify your record from 1950, but might have your parents’ address in 1939 but you need the address. In Northern Ireland the Public Record Office will only provide details from an address (not by name) and will redact any information about people who might still be living (i.e. 100 years from their birth date stated in 1939).
There’s more on this at:
http://www.irishgenealogynews.com/2013/06/1939-national-register-proni-latest.html
The brown children’s identity cards were no longer produced after 1952 so copies are not available. Food rationing in Britain lasted for fourteen years (seven years after the war) and ended at midnight on 4th July 1954, when restrictions on the sale and purchase of meat and bacon were removed. Most people were glad to see the back of the identity cards and ration cards, but my late mother kept her blue adult identity card and it is still with family documents 77 years on.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Brian Adams
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 10:23 PM

Alan... my friend... oh my goodnesss... what a wealth of very useful information...
I'm sure it took you quite a while to research this and write it all out ... Thank you for your patience...
I will. tomorrow, do some searching on the sites you gave me and then I'll call it a day... my curiosity has been satisfied... immensly ...
I really appreciate all the work you have done, and am much oblidged that you were able to do it so quickly...

I hope you have a nice day and a wonderful week...

Kindest regards from the Emerald Isle...
Posted by: David Ashman {Email left}
Location: Newton Abbot
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 7:37 AM
Hi Alan,
I think I need a little help in sorting out the service record of a relative I only found out about yesterday, thanks to a contact made through your forum. Robert Overill served in the tank Corps no 205370, and is listed elsewhere as having served earlier in RFA 3rd Batt service no 466 and/or as a private in the Motor Machine Gun Corp no 5422. Can you clear up if this is the same man in each case, and also the final rank he achieved before Demob?
Thank you.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 30th August 2016 at 8:25 PM

Dear David,
Robert Overill enlisted at Kilburn on 12th September 1914 and was posted to the 12th Battery Motor Machine Gun Service of the Royal Field Artillery, with the regimental number 5422.
He was 26 years old, 5ft 10ins tall and had a dark complexion with grey eyes and brown hair. Members of the M.M.G.S. were volunteers many of whom were motorcycle enthusiasts. The motor machine gun batteries were a new concept at the time. Robert was appointed an acting Lance-corporal on 24th September 1914.
Robert was sent overseas to France on 16th February 1915 and was then posted to 3 Battery M.M.G.S. (commanded by Capt. F.E. Soames) in V Corps on 19th February. This unit served in 28th Division, I think. The next day he was promoted to Bombardier. This was his first promotion, as Lance-corporal was not a War Office substantive rank, but a locally-made appointment. An appointment could be made or withdrawn by the commanding officer whilst a rank had to be approved by the War Office.
On 19th March 1915 Robert was in a dug-out in the trenches near Ypres with a grenade in his hands. The fuse of the grenade exploded with a blue flash and badly injured both his hands. The grenade itself did not explode. An inquiry concluded it was an accident. He was treated in hospital in France and returned to England on 13th April 1915 where he was further treated at Spalding Hall Hospital, Hendon.
Once he had recovered Robert became an instructor in England. He passed instructor’s courses as 1st Class in Hotchkiss gun; Vickers machine-gun and a third (illegible) gun, possibly Lewis.
On 16th August 1915 Robert was at an M.M.G.S Depot (unidentified) and was promoted to Corporal. On 1st December 1915 he was formally transferred to the new Machine Gun Corps (Motors) which absorbed the M.M.G.S. batteries of the Royal Field Artillery. His new regimental number was 466 in the Machine Gun Corps. A headquarters for the M.G.C. was established with a training depot in the grounds of Belton House, near Grantham. Robert was promoted to Sergeant on 3rd December 1915.
On 19th April 1916, Robert was appointed acting Sergeant Major with “A” Company, Heavy Section Machine Gun Corps, Bull House Farm Camp, Bisley, near Woking, Surrey. This was the headquarters of the Heavy Section under the command of Colonel Swinton. The Heavy section was a cover title disguising the fact this was where the first experimental tanks were on trial. They were actually driven by volunteers from the Mechanical Transport section of the Army Service Corps. The A.S.C. formed 711 Company A.S.C. to act as the workshops.
On 27th May 1916 he reverted at his own request to acting-Sergeant. (Whilst this seems unreasonable, it is likely that with the creation of the new units there was some confusion over the “establishment”, which was the number of men in a unit and the number of allocated ranks for Non Commissioned Officers. To tidy up any over-establishment or over-expenditure in pay, Robert might have continued in his post but had to revert to sergeant. To ensure there was no suggestion of demotion through disgrace, he reverted “at his own request”).
On 26th June 1916 the Heavy Section moved to Elveden Camp, near Thetford, Norfolk, where the Heavy Section started to raise the first six companies of tanks and their crews. On 14th July 1916, as a sergeant once more, he was posted to “Park Company” M.M.G.C. (a variation: Motor Machine Gun Corps) at Thetford. I would suggest “Park” in this sense was a military tank park, the word used in the military sense of storage or holding area. Robert then moved to M.G.C. (Heavy Section) Training Centre, No 2 Camp, Thetford, on 11th September 1916, as a sergeant. The first four tank companies went to France in August 1916 where the first tank action was at Flers on 15th September 1916. The Heavy Section HQ remained in England and in November 1916, The Heavy Section M.G.C. was re-named the Heavy Branch.
In October 1916, Robert got married.
On 11th November 1916, Robert was promoted to paid Company Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer Class 2) in 2nd Battalion Heavy Branch M.G.C..
On 24th February 1917, Robert was posted as Company Sergeant Major to “A” Company, Depot Battalion, Heavy Branch M.G.C.. On 27th July 1917, the Heavy Branch M.G.C. became the Tank Corps. Robert was re-numbered 205370 Tank Corps. On 15th June 1918, as a Company Sergeant Major he moved to the Tank Corps Depot and on 25th July 1918 he was posted to Reserve Unit Tank Corps, Worgret Camp, Wareham (a.k.a. Wareham Camp), as a Company Sergeant Major. Two months later on 25th September 1918 he was appointed locally as paid acting Regimental Sergeant Major (Warrant Officer Class 1). In August – September 1918 he was on attachment to Bovington Camp, Wareham. These were all tank training camps. On 18th September 1918, the Tank Corps record office notified the Worgret Camp commandant that the acting appointment of R.S.M. for Robert Overill was approved. The reason Robert had been made acting R.S.M. was because the camp commandant at Worgret, Lt-Col W. Pepys, considered Robert’s predecessor unsuitable after a few weeks. He had been acting Warrant Officer Class 1 Frederick Measures who was discharged as medically unfit in August 1918 and later died of heart disease on 8th January 1919. On 23rd January 1919, Robert was an acting R.S.M. at the Tank Corps Depot. On 1st February 1919 Robert volunteered to stay on for another year at the Depot. He reverted to his substantive rank of Warrant Officer Class 2 (Company Sergeant Major) on 24 October 1919. His Royal Warrant was sent to his home address, Prospect Cottages, Ditcheat, Somerset, in January 1920. Robert was demobilized in the rank of Company Sergeant Major on 30th March 1920 and was discharged from the Army on 27th April 1920.
He qualified for the 1914-15 Star (France 56 days); the British War Medal and the Victory Medal. For background on the Machine Gun Corps and the first tanks see Chris Baker’s website, The Long, Long Trail:
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/regiments-and-corps/machine-gun-corps-in-the-first-world-war/
With kind regards,
Alan
[Service record from Ancestry.co.uk with additional images viewed before the landing page which the ‘view image’ button takes you to.]
Posted by: Jacky {No contact email}
Location: Shropshire
Date: Monday 29th August 2016 at 2:30 PM
Alan, firstly many thanks for your help in the past, which has been invaluable.
I wonder if I might ask to pick your brains again for a couple of minutes, please?
I'm researching a soldier who was KIA with 16 Bn Royal Welsh Fusiliers on 24th August 1918, and hoping that you might be able to tell me where to look so I can find out what the Bn were involved in at the time. This would be a great way to add detail to the soldier's story. Many thanks, Jacky.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Monday 29th August 2016 at 2:44 PM

Dear Jacky,
The war diary of the 16th Battalion Royal Welsh Fusiliers can be downloaded from The National Archives website for £3.45. See:
http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7354154
The 16th Battalion served in the 38th (Welsh) Division. See Chris Baker’s website, the Long Long Trail for their engagements.
http://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/army/order-of-battle-of-divisions/38th-welsh-division/
The Division was fighting in what became known as the Second Battle of Bapaume on April 24th 1918.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Jacky Cooper
Date: Monday 29th August 2016 at 8:35 PM

Many thanks, Alan, Much appreciated!
Posted by: Donna Parrett {Email left}
Location: Bath
Date: Friday 26th August 2016 at 3:32 PM
Alan,
Can you help me understand the uk soldiers effect record for Wallace 112051 please?

28/10/8 was transferred to vote 108 19/12/1922 what is vote 108?
9/9/6 was authorised to John A Moore on 19/7/1920 Could funeral cost be made from soldier effects?

What does see 31 miso / 2655 mean?

Any help will be appreciated
Donna
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 26th August 2016 at 7:38 PM

Dear Donna,
I haven’t come across this before, but I note that it recurs elsewhere in the registers when a soldier had been discharged from the Army and died after the war had ended, as opposed to being killed during the war. It suggests the soldier had already received some of the money due to him.
This is my interpretation:
The registers of soldiers’ effects are accountancy ledgers. They record the money owed to a soldier, which consisted of his balance of pay, plus a service gratuity or a war gratuity. The money usually went to the man’s sole legatee, who was often his widow, or a parent if he was unmarried; sometimes it was paid to siblings.
The War Office was funded by the Government and the amounts of money in any particular fund were “voted” as credits from the Treasury as “Army Votes”. This is a governmental use of the word “vote” meaning a sum of money granted by a majority of votes. Estimates of money required by the Army were submitted to the Government in annual Army Estimates. The government then decided the maximum strength of the army and also its finances in the annual “Army Vote A”. Supplementary estimates could be issued by the Treasury out of the Consolidated Fund and used for expenditure authorised by Parliament. The Consolidated Fund is the Government's general bank account at the Bank of England.
The war gratuity was introduced in December 1918 as a payment to be made to those men who had served in the war, depending on rules laid out in Army Order 17 of 1919. A sum of money had to be voted to provide a fund for these gratuity payments.
There had also been a service gratuity, depending on a man’s length of service, which was paid before the introduction of the war gratuity. For this a man was provided with a Post Office Savings Account into which the payments were made. Again, a sum of money had to be set aside for this scheme.
William Wallace died on 25th November 1919 after he had been discharged from the Army.
The CWGC listed his relative as a married sister, Mrs P. Duffus of Blairgowrie. Someone, probably John A. Moore, applied for any outstanding payments, after William Wallace’s death.
The accountancy columns in the effects’ register showed William Wallace had been due a total of £38 0s. 2d for his war service, including war gratuity. This was recorded in the credit column. So, on paper, £38.0s.2d had been debited from the fund which was set up to finance the payments, and that would have been known as “Vote 108”, which would be the Army fund used to finance the Postmaster General’s accounts for making the payments through the Post Office. However, William Wallace had apparently already received a large proportion of the £38 before he died and this was shown as “charges” of £28.10s. 8d against his credit, which would have been the sum of the payments already paid to him via the Post Office whilst he was alive.
Accountants have to balance the books, so those charges of £28.10s. 8d which made up part of the £38, had to be transferred back to the account, and that account was “Vote 108”. The balance of the outstanding funds owed to the late William Wallace was £9. 9s. 6d, which was paid to one person on 19th July 1920: John A Moore, who might have been a relative or even a solicitor handling the deceased’s estate.
A dead man could not apply for the rest of the money owed to him. Paragraph 33 of Army Order 17 of 1919 stated: “In the case of deceased soldiers in respect of whom Army Form O1815 (or equivalent report) has already been rendered, and of men who have died since discharge, Army Form W5070 will have been forwarded by the War Office to the Paymaster for insertion of the gratuity or balance of gratuity due. A recapitulation of the credits notified each day on Army Form W5070 will be forwarded to the Secretary of the War Office, Imperial Institute, London, SW7 with the relative forms. The charges against Army Votes in these cases will be made by the War Office direct.”
So it can be seen that charges (and credits) were made against “Army Votes”, which is another way of describing an Army bank account number 108.
The House of Commons voted the money in parliament. It was transferred from the Treasury to the War Office who allocated it to the Army as “Vote 108” which was the allocation of funds set aside to finance the wartime payments. The funds passed to the Postmaster General to pay the soldier through the soldier’s Post Office Savings Account.
The register containing William Wallace’s entry was entitled the “25th Part of List 534”, with the individual record number 911044, which would be shown as 534/911044. Some soldier’s entries have “see also” followed by such a number indicating they had more than one entry in the numerous volumes of the registers.
In cases where a soldier died after the war ended and was owed money, there is a note which read: “see also 3/misc/2655” which relates to an entry in a miscellaneous list. The registers themselves are held at the National Army Museum. Whilst the Ancestry website has digitised some of them, it is not clear where the miscellaneous files are held or if they have survived with the original registers. The National Army Museum is currently being re-built and cannot answer enquiries until November 2016.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Donna Parrett
Date: Friday 26th August 2016 at 7:50 PM

Thank you Alan, once again a very informative post
Posted by: David {Email left}
Location: Sydney
Date: Friday 26th August 2016 at 2:51 AM
Dear Allan my enquire is about imperial war plaques how do i find out wether my 2 uncles were entitled to the award because both were killed in ww1.one was killed in france in 1918 and the other in galipolli in 1915.Regards David
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Friday 26th August 2016 at 3:09 PM

Dear David,
All soldiers who were killed in the First World War were acknowledged after the war ended by the issuing of a plaque and scroll to their direct next-of-kin. See:
http://www.iwm.org.uk/history/first-world-war-next-of-kin-plaque
With kind regards,
Alan
Posted by: Alison Pirouet {Email left}
Location: Chesham
Date: Thursday 25th August 2016 at 9:47 AM
I am trying to find out about Major A.C. Poole (believe to be Arthur Edward), who was a military knight, based at Windsor Castle in 1911. Could you help please, information seems to be a little hard to find
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 25th August 2016 at 8:02 PM

Dear Alison,
Arthur Edward Poole was the son of the Rev Thomas Poole and his wife Mary. The Rev Poole was the perpetual curate of Firbeck-cum-Letwell on the Yorkshire-Nottinghamshire border between Doncaster and Worksop. Arthur was the couple’s third son, born in 1850 and baptised on 21st May 1850 at Letwell. He attended the Blue Coat School (Christ’s Hospital) and then went up to Cambridge University. In May 1873, when he left Cambridge, he joined the 10th Royal Hussars which at that time was stationed at Lucknow in India. He served in the ranks for nine years to become Quarter-master Sergeant. The 10th Royal Hussars was a sophisticated regiment with the Duke of Clarence; at least three lords; and a sprinkling of “honourables” in the Officers’ Mess. In 1879 there was an outbreak of Cholera in which the 10th Royal Hussars suffered 40 fatalities. “The London Gazette” recorded Quarter-master Sergeant Arthur Edward Poole was appointed Quarter-master and honorary Lieutenant on 2nd December 1882. The Regiment was at Lucknow in 1882 and sailed for England in 1884 but was halted at Egypt because of unrest in the Sudan. The Sudan or Soudan was defined as an area south of the Sahara and north of the jungle forest. It is a dry grass land that stretches from the Red Sea to the Atlantic Ocean. The 10th Royal Hussars took part in the fighting against the rebels of Osman Digma at El Teb and Tamaii. This was part of the Suakin expedition in the Sudan by the British Army between 1883 and 1885. Lord Kitchener was there in this period leading the Egyptian Army contingent. The uprisings were part of the unsettled local response to increased British involvement in Egypt following the opening of the Suez Canal. Suakin was Kitchener’s headquarters and his force survived a lengthy siege there. Arthur Poole was responsible for making the most of the men’s comforts throughout the Hussars’ involvement in the campaign. He qualified for the Egypt Medal with clasp “Suakin 1884” (19th February – 26th March 1884). The medal was presented personally by the Prince of Wales when the regiment was back in England at Shorncliffe Camp in 1884. Arthur was also presented with the Bronze Star of His Highness the Khedive of Egypt for service near Suakin. Arthur was promoted to Captain in 1892.
Arthur had married his wife, Mary, at Lucknow in 1881 (?) and their first two children were born at Lucknow. They were Florence Mary Mildred (1882) and Maud Gertrude Eleanor (1884). In 1885, Thomas Frederick Alexander Poole was born at Shorncliffe Camp. Beatrice Margaret Isabel Poole was born at Hounslow Barracks in 1888. A year later, the 10th Hussars moved to the Cavalry Barracks at Fulford Road, York. (It is now a police headquarters).
Hugh Edward Algernon Poole was born at York in 1889.
While at York, the 10th Royal Hussars took part in many parades; steeple-chases, regimental balls; and sports tournaments that were reported in the local papers. Two more boys were born at York: Charles William, born at York in 1891and Richard Lionel, born York 1892. In 1893 the Hussars moved to Ireland, where a daughter, Evelyn Gladys was born at Cahir, Co. Tipperary in 1894. In 1896 the 10th Royal Hussars presented the musical ride at the week-long Royal Military Tournament in Dublin. In 1897 they were stationed at Newbridge, Co. Kildare and then returned to England in 1898 where they were at Bulford Camp, Salisbury Plain. (In June 1898 it was reported in the Taunton Courier that soldiers in line battalions were henceforth forbidden whilst in uniform to walk arm in arm with a female in the street).
In November 1899 the Boers in South Africa declared war against Britain. The 10th Royal Hussars fought in the Second Anglo-Boer War at Colesberg and the regiment participated in the relief of Kimberley in February 1900. Arthur qualified for The Queen's South Africa Medal with clasps: Paardeberg; Dreifontein; Johannesburg; Relief of Kimberley.
However, by now Arthur was 50 years old and the fighting and climate of South Africa affected his health and he was invalided home in 1900. His wife, Mary, had died sometime between the census of 1891 and the census of April 1901 when Arthur was recorded as a guest of Francis Gregson, 2 Lowndes Street, Belgravia, London. The children all attended private schools in England: Christ’s Hospital (boys) (a.k.a. Blue Coat School); Forest School, Walthamstow for boys; The Royal School for Daughters of Officers of the Army at Chalcombe, Somerset; Jane Allanson’s ladies’ school, York.
On returning to England from South Africa, Arthur was taken onto the staff of the 1st Army Corps under the command of Sir John French at Aldershot where Arthur became the Camp Quartermaster in May 1901 and was promoted Honorary Major on 29th November 1901. He retired from the Army on 26th May 1905.
Major Arthur Edward Poole, retired, was appointed a Military Knight of Windsor on January 1st 1906. The Military Knights of Windsor were once known as the Alms Knights and were called informally the “Poor Knights”. They are retired military officers who receive a pension and accommodation at Windsor Castle. Their ceremonial duties involve support for the Order of the Garter and the services of St. George's Chapel at Windsor Castle. By 1911, Major Poole was the secretary of the Windsor Hospital. He lived at 17 Castle Yard with three of his children, Charles William, born at York in 1891; Richard Lionel, born York 1892 and Evelyn Gladys born at Cahir, Co. Tipperary in 1894. The Hospital adjoined a workhouse and later became part of the Edward VII Hospital. In 1911 Arthur was presented with the Coronation Medal (George V).
In the Great War (1914-1918) Major Poole served in England on the staff of the Army’s Western Command until 1919. One of his sons, Hugh Edward Algernon, served as a Lieutenant in the 11th Hussars and was died of wounds at Zillebeke, near Ypres, in June 1915.
At the age of 80, Arthur Poole was the senior Military Knight at Windsor where he died on June 28th 1930 at his home in Castle Ward, Windsor.
A snapshot of the Poole family life is recorded in a Christmas Diary dated 1899 held at Goole Museum. It is at:
https://sites.google.com/site/thegooleexperience/my-christmas-diary
During his time, Arthur Poole was a keen sportsman, enjoying cricket, shooting and swimming.
With kind regards,
Alan

Additional sources: “The London Gazette”; British Newspaper Archive; “X Royal Hussars Gazette” Vol. x; No 2, September 1930.
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Thursday 25th August 2016 at 10:28 PM

Proof reading corrections: "At the age of 80, Arthur Poole was the senior Military Knight at Windsor where he died on June 28th 1930 at his home in Castle Ward, Windsor." should read "Castle Yard" not "Ward". In the previous paragraph, delete "was" from: "Hugh Edward Algernon, served as a Lieutenant in the 11th Hussars and was died of wounds at Zillebeke, near Ypres, in June 1915."
Alan
Reply from: Alison Pirouet
Date: Friday 26th August 2016 at 5:53 AM

Many thanks

Much appreciated,
Posted by: David {No contact email}
Location: Austrailia
Date: Tuesday 23rd August 2016 at 4:40 AM
Dear Allan,i had two uncles killed in ww1 are they entitled to a memorial plaque,and if so how do i find out how to get them. One was killed in france and the other in galipolli one with SWB and the other with The Welsh RegtRegards David
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Tuesday 23rd August 2016 at 12:05 PM

Dear David,
The bronze memorial plaques were issued to the next-of-kin of all soldiers who were killed during the war. Therefore the plaques would be in the possession of the family. Copies are not available.
With kind regards,
Alan
Reply from: Donna Parrett
Date: Saturday 10th September 2016 at 4:01 PM

Alan,
Is their records on who the Memorial plaques and medals where sent to?
Donna
Reply from: Alan Greveson
Date: Saturday 10th September 2016 at 4:52 PM

Dear Donna,
The memorial plaque and medals would automatically be sent to the man’s next-of-kin which the man would have nominated when he enlisted. In the case of William Wallace the CWGC Debt of Honour recorded him as the brother of Mrs. P. Duffus, of 50, William St., Blairgowrie, Perthshire. However, there was also the unidentified John A. Moore who was named in the Register of Soldiers’ Effects.
With kind regards,
Alan

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